Historic HomeWorks Forum

[johnleeke]

Jade writes:

[jade]

Thanks, John....That's great news. I will be contacting Duffy to purchase the product and see if he can shed some light on the onsite endurance of this product.

Question, didn't Steve send a product similar to the one Duffy sent? If so, do you think they are the same product?

I'll keep the forum posted on my putty experience...

....Jade

[DBowers]

I have done more than 30 sash using Aqua Glaze. It has a sticky quality to it when first taken out of the can. I mix the contents a bit before trying to use a new can. I take a couple golf ball size scoops and work in my hand for about 30 seconds. It does stick to your hand at first but if you can get by that it becomes smooth and much less sticky. Secret: Don't get both hands in it. Although there is a learning curve I have found it satifactory to work with. The real plus is it's ready to paint the next day. I glaze on an easel and have developed a technique that allows me to glaze a large 6 light sash in 20 minutes ( does not include time to bed the glass). If it appears to be dragging or pulling, just dip your outty knife in clean water.

There is frequently a fine line of glazing left on the glass. I do not touch this until I clean the glass before painting. This is easily removed when cleaning. One other observation is that shelf life is 30-60 days once a can is opened.

Dave

[johnleeke]

[sswiat]

I did have the opportunity to use the Atlas putty on 8 sash recently.

Here are my observations:

Workability
1) It was sticky to the hands so expect to have messy hands.
2) Sticks to the knife and pulls away if worked to fast after application. I found that if I let it "marry" the wood for a good long time (10-15+ minutes I had a good bond). I would start one sash applying the putty and work may way through a few others before taking the knife to it. I had good results that way and was able to get a smooth tight application. I also could add back if I pulled to much away with no problems.


Skinning over

On the days worked we had temperatures in the high 80's to low 90's. The shop was hot and I doubt it ever went below 80 at night.
The putty appeared to have developed a skin over it as evidenced by the sheen and no longer sticking to your fingers. It was still pliable underneath and care had to be taken. I would definitely say it was less pliable than DAP 33. If your fingers hit it, it would dent but not to the degree experienced using DAP 33. The skinning was noticed after 48 hours. I had a fan on it for a few hours while I was working in the shop.

Painting:

I did apply paint at approximately 72 hours post application. An oil primer was used and it took it well with no problems noticed. The oil paint was thinned slightly with mineral spirits to smooth application. I imagine it would be possible to break the skin with a thicker paint or a paint that was setting up to quickly. I did thin because of the hot temperatures an wanted to reduce brush drag.

After 24 hours, 2 coats of exterior Ben Moore acrylic latex was applied. It took the paint well but it was noticeable that under the painted skin, that the putty was quite soft. It was soft enough that if you happend to deform it when moving, you could smooth it out easily wit a light finger touch. Carefully done, the paint skin would not break.

After another 24 hours approximately 4 more coats of Sherwin Williams acrylic latex paint was applied with the appropriate recoat time plus between coats. (this was because the client had the house painted different colors w/o my knowledge so the windows where green and no longer white. Then they gave me the wrong green to repaint the sash. At the end of the ordeal , the windows had 1 coat of primer and 5-6 coats of latex.).

When applying topcoats 3 through 6, the paint adhered but the putty underneath the paint and the initial skin was still noticeably pliable.

Follow-up:

I fortunately will have the opportunity to reinspect the sash approximately 3 weeks post initial glazing so I can see if there is any immediate issues.


Conclusion:

I am in the middle on this product. I would probably rate it over any of the water based glazing used to date and above DAP. I have no experience with Perm-a-glaze. I guess no one can claim that the name is misleading. Perm-E-lastic appears to stay "permanently" elastic!

Questions for John:

Based on your putty board sample, is quick drying to the point it will break off in chunks good? Isn't such dryness going to cause premature failure since it will lose it's ability to flex with the woods seasonal and moisture absorption changes?

Is there a benefit to being soft underneath for as long as possible as the oil is trapped and will slowly dryout and remain flexible? If it skins over just enought to apply an oil based primer, won't the paint coat also act as a barrier to dryout of the oils?

With the Perm-a-glaze, what do you beleive gives it such a dark color? Is it possible that some additive is used to speed the drying? I know when doing wood finishing, additives are often used, to speed or slow drying depending on weather and temperature conditions. Such solvents/thinners like naptha evaporate much faster than mineral spirits and can be added to oil paint to speed drying. There is also japan driers which is used to speed the drying/curing time of linseed oil finishes.

Which leads to the next question, japan driers are commonly used on oil based finishes with good results. What would be the affect of adding a japan drier to oil based putty other than causing it to dry more quickly?

[johnleeke]

SSwiat reports:

My last post discusses the trial of Perm-Elastic glazing putty.

I did have the opportunity to inspect the sash that were glazed with Perm-Elastic 45 days post painting.

The inspection revealed that the Perm-Elastic had hardened and was no longer pliable under the paint. The paint also appeared to have adhered well with no signs of shrinkage.

[L.Shaw]

Hi...I do a little window restoration work in Newport, RI. I've tried AquaGlaze and really love using it. Problem is...I can't find it anywhere. A problem with supplying it I'm told. Anyone have info. about that? Would appreciate a response to lauriceshaw@msn.com if that's appropriate.

Many thanks
L.

[johnleeke]

Jade writes in another discussion:

[jade]

Very interesting......

Yes, the PermaGlaze does harden in the can once it is opened. What I do to correct this problem is wrap wax paper around a piece of cardboard that fits in snugly on top of the glazing. This eliminates contamination from the airspace and I find it works quite well. My original container has a whole gallon of dried putty sitting unuseable at the bottom....

My thoughts.....in most cases, the majority of the glazing rabbet is covered with a bedding of putty, then the glass, which in turn is secured by glazing points so, in my opinion the 'adherence factor' is not an issue. Some people don't even use a bed but install the glass right on the wood. I use a putty bed as a gasket against the weather and as a cushion for safely seating the glass. The putty that is applied over the glass sticks to the glass that is smooth and nonpourous (how many times have you pulled out a piece of glass and found that the glazing is stuck like glue to it??) My concern is not so much about adherence as it is about conditioning the wood with oil so that it will not (over a short period of time) wick the oils out of the putty. I always use an oilbased primer so that the glazing putty is sandwiched between oil based products...

Another thought is that once the primer and two coats of finish paint dry and cure they are helping to adhere the putty to the wood and the glass.....

One of the reasons I asked this question is because I am using Sherwin Williams A-100 primer which can take up to three days to dry sufficiently enough to paint over. What that presents is upwards of 6 days for the primer to dry on the rabbet prior to AND after glazing....If Penetrol offers what I want in maintaining the oil in both the wood and the putty, it seems that that would be the way to go.....

What do you think about that???
...Jade

[kristina]

I have read the posts on the historic homeworks forum about glazing putty. As a european, I was happy in 2003 to finally find the Sterling-Clark old time linseed putty, as this is similar to the products I was used to. But as you know, they were bought out and stopped production. Does anyone have any experience with Crawford Painters putty? I have now used it on some windows, but I would be much more comfortable using it if there is a general agreement that it will hold up well. We are restoring the windows of our 1795 Federal style house Maryland. It involves stripping all the paint, making some carpentry repair to the frames, replacing some panes and new putty all around. After that, finding new window weights and we will have again our double hang windows moving.

I will include the website of Crawford putty.

http://crawfords.com/c/htmlos/003.1.925693256218708185/Painters_Putty

[johnleeke]

I put Crawford's Painter's Putty in the same classification as Old-Time Putty: traditional linseed oil and whiting putty. It shoud be noted that the manufacturer does not promote it as a glazing putty. Duffy Hoffman, long-time painter and window specialist in Pennsylivania has extolled the virtues of Crawford's as a window glazing putty and demonstrates its use in his training workshops, but I don't have anything in my notes on its service life performance.

It's interesting to note that a year or two ago Duffy shifted from Crawford's to PermaGlaze.

[jade]

Kristina....

I have 2 unopened gallons of Old Time Putty that I purchased about a year ago. If you are willing to pay for shipment, you can have them.....I now use PermaGlaze. I like it's consistency, workability and, under the best conditions, it is ready to prime in 48 hours. I typically allow 4-5 days and have a fan blowing on the glazed sash for a few hours a day....

In speaking with Duffy, he said if the PermaGlaze was not available for some reason he would use the Crawford's putty. It's available through some Sherwin-Williams Paint dealers....

...Jade

[GA]

I'm restoring the original beautiful 9 over 1 windows on a 1925 craftsman and am happy to find this forum.

My main emphasis is to make sure the material I use to reglaze the windows will last many years. The next important thing is I have to be able to use the material. After reading all the posts I could find on this forum about glazing, a few questions remain:

1. What are the thoughts on using Dap 33 Glazing. I dont see any comments on it.

2. I've attempted to use the Dap Latex Glazing in a caulk type cartridge, because it seems like latex would be most flexible and durable. However, I cannot control the soupy consistency and decided I really need a knife grade material. I found this site searching for a latex knife grade material. However, I see that many prefer the oil based materials. What is the reasoning for this? What are the thoughts on latex based materials?

3. Several years ago I tried a knife grade latex compound made by Elmers, called Tuff Glaze. It was a bit more difficult to work than Dap 33, but not as difficult as the soupy stuff in the cartridge. It seems to have held up well, but is no longer available. Any information on this stuff - ie availability and is it any good?

Thanks!

[johnleeke]

GA:

DAP 33 is the ubiquitous common denominator of glazing compounds. It is available everywere, used by many because it is all they can get. Look for Crawfords, and perhaps find it a Sherwin Williams Paints.

In fact, I should be sure to include DAP 33 in my next comparitive testing, just because it is so common and everyone knows what it is like (not too likeable, but better than no putty at all.)

Bob Yapp throws his beat up can of DAP 33 across the room, to demonstrate what it thinks of DAP 33, it slams against the concrete blocks. The can is almost as round as a soft ball.

[jade]

Hi GA.....
In addition to the positive comments made about PermaGlaze, one of the significant advantages to using the product is its drying time. The manufacturer claims that it should skin over sufficently to be painted in 48 hours. Indeed it does. I typically have a fan blowing on the puttied sash to enhance oxidation, hencethe drying time. I find it beneficial to use a fast drying oil primer such as Benjamin Moore Fresh Start Fast Dry.

The product is currently manufactured by Schnee-Morehead but they purchased the product from the original manufacturer, Biddle, who had been making it for some time. Because it is only available in 5 gallon containers, you will most likely never see it at your local hardware store. It is a product used mostly by higher end sash makers and window restoration specialists.

Dap33 has been widely used for many years and enjoys a good reputation. Drying time is 10 days or more. As for the latex putty, I personally do not like them. I reintroduce oil (boiled linseed, soy, Penetrol) to the wood to replace the oils lost over the years. Applying an oil based putty followed by an oil based primer makes the most sense to me.

Hope this helps.....
...Jade